Dennis Wong Talks With Heidi Burgess About Rotarian Peacebuilding

Heidi Burgess: Hi, I'm Heidi Burgess with Beyond Intractability. and I'm talking today, which is February 19th, 2026, with Dennis Wong, who is a Rotarian Peacebuilder.  Dennis wrote us a few weeks ago in response to the comments that Chip Hauss made in his interview about Rotary and offered to talk more about what Rotarian Peacebuilding is. We were very eager to take him up on that offer because that's something we've been wanting to learn about for quite a while. So Dennis, I'm going to turn it over to you. And if you would, I'd like you to start out before we talk about Rotarian Peacebuilding. Talk about your background and what got you into Rotary and into peace work and that kind of thing. 

Dennis Wong: Well, thank you for the opportunity to share some time with you on peacebuilding. I was born and raised in Hawaii, which I think is a background that is with me. You know they talk about having the "Aloha spirit" and the idea of Ohana, which means family. And everyone is family — everybody's taken care of and no one is left behind. So that's kind of my background. I also like to say that in Hawaii, one of the amazing things,  in addition to the weather, is the fact that everyone's a minority. There is no majority. And so I come from a little different, I guess, atmosphere. And I was born and raised there. 

And then I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to go to Northwestern University. My first time off the rock and going to Chicago and Evanston and seeing what the other side of the world looks like. It was interesting, meeting different people from everywhere in the United States and even internationally, and getting a sense of who we are and where we are.

When I left Hawaii, it was basically in a small town. And I was going to a big city and seeing people and also meeting some very, very bright people, some very talented people. And at the same time, I think one of the things that's rooted in me, from growing up in Hawaii, etc., is the fact that there's good people and bad people, regardless You know people that you can count on and people that you may not be able to count on.

I'm 84 years old. I was born in 1941. When I graduated from high school and went to college, it was 1959, the year that Hawaii became a state. So it's interesting transferring from a territory to a state, going from Hawaii to Illinois, Chicago, during that time. Also, what helped me was the fact that I had a scholarship through the Navy ROTC. So, during that time, I was in the Navy ROTC and, I graduated in 1963. And that's when the Vietnam War was just starting.

So here I was in the service, doing my duty, and the war was starting. I spent eight years in the Navy. That included  four years at Northwestern, for which I owed the Navy four years for the schooling. I was also selected to go to graduate school. So I got my MBA in the Navy. And for that, I ended up giving another two years. So at the end of eight years, my last duty station was in New York City, which I love. People say going from Hawaii to New York City? Well, I found that they're both islands! So I lived in Manhattan. 

I decided for a number of reasons to leave the service.  I love the Navy. I love the people that I worked with. But at the same time, I was conflicted with what was going on with the war. During my time in the Navy, I was fortunate enough not to be stationed in Vietnam. And at the end of my eight years,  I thought best for me and my situation that I would leave the Navy and become a civilian.

So I got a business degree. And so I was in business until I retired a few years ago. And as a business person, we also face a lot of different situations, conflicts, problem-solving, etc., which eventually I found also very helpful in my time with Rotary and business situations, which led to my interest in peacebuilding.

I joined Rotary about 20 years ago after a fellow Northwestern alumnus kept bugging me for three, four years. "You've got to go to Rotary!" You've got to go to Rotary!"  And so I eventually went. And interestingly enough, I guess some of it is timing, and being relevant. I found that I could do a lot of good service work in Rotary.

First, I started with doing projects on clean water, doing projects on helping with inner-city students, education, and the like.  Rotary has a lot of different areas of focus, including education, health, water, etc., including peace. So for the first few years, I worked on the basic things about water and education.

And I liked it. Rotary, is  an international organization in almost every country. There's about 50,000 Rotary clubs around the world. And probably, there's a Rotary Club in most towns that you're in. There's a very active one in Boulder, which is really a terrific club, and doing good service work. And so I found that my club that I joined, the Westport Sunrise Rotary, was very accommodating to doing what members wanted to do and provided some support.

And also, one of the things that I think is the strength of Rotary is the clubs and the fact that there's resources, people, and money, which is very, very helpful in doing projects. So, I enjoyed doing things at Rotary, because I found I could do certain things that I enjoyed. 

And then about 12 years ago, I had an opportunity to meet up with a person from Portland, Oregon, Al Jubitz. And we shared a common idea: we thought that in all the services that we were doing, peace could be a major factor. And so we put together a Rotary group for peace. There are different types of Rotary groups that one can put together.  So we put together a group within Rotary called Rotarian Action Group for Peace, with a focus on peace and moving forward. And in those 12 years, we've seen our efforts within Rotary growing.

I think it's the time for, possibly, that tipping point, and making it a real major thing within Rotary. Stepping back, Rotary has been known for its work in eliminating polio. And it's been at it for about 40 years. And also, I think it is a model, an interesting effort, where Rotary has made an effort, a big idea, to eliminate polio, which would be the second disease that is completely eliminated from the world — with the first being smallpox. Rotary has made a commitment with a lot of talent, time, and treasury to address this issue of polio. 

Al Jubitz and I thought that basically the next big idea for Rotary could be peace. So that's where we are right now.

Heidi: So explain to me how you define "peace." What is your goal, and then what your strategies are towards working towards that goal. 

Dennis: Through these 12 years, it's been a learning experience, working with other peacebuilders and other organizations. I've found that people either can't define peace or have different ideas about what peace means. So I think that makes it difficult for people to really get around the idea of "peace." What should we do? What's our purpose?

I've been a lifetime learner. And I've learned from peacebuilders like Johan Galtung and John Paul Lederach. I've also learned also from other people who are involved with problem-solving and business and marketing, what we need to do. I leaned from  Simon Sinek, who wrote the book Start with Why, about purpose and clarity. And also from Bent Flyvbjerg on How to Get Big Things Done. He takes a different look at how we approach peacebuilding.  

So I've come to my definition and my purpose and goals is for World Peace where every person, every community, and every nation can live in safety, dignity, and well-being, which basically, in many ways, is the consensus values of peace and the benefits of peaceful societies.

I think one of the things that people don't have, because of how we articulate what we're going for, the purpose of peace, I think, people don't understand necessarily how they're going to benefit.  I think a lot of times we talk about peacebuilding and conflict resolution, we're talking about different areas and also more in countries outside the United States where we are trying to help people to live a better life. That's a very important thing — to help people live a better life and well-being and quality of life. 

So what I've been trying to work with people is to get a better vision, a purpose of what we're trying to do. And people may have different ideas, but I think clarity helps. I think a purpose helps. And also, I think people still like to be part of a big idea. And so I think for me, World Peace is a big idea.

I'm also involved with a group within Rotary for a world without nuclear weapons. If we have world peace, the need for nuclear weapons may go away, as opposed to trying to get people to eliminate it right now.

Also, what's interesting is the fact that even in polio, after 40 years of Rotary being involved since the Salk vaccine there's still pockets of polio in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And so while we say we're there, 99% plus polio free, I think, and that was brought up by what happened in Gaza and the Israel situation. About a year ago, they had to stop the war for three days in Gaza so they could apply the polio vaccine. And I think UN Secretary Antonio Guterres had a very important statement when he said that "peace could be the ultimate vaccine for polio."  Because if you had peace, then obviously a lot of different things could happen as far as getting the vaccines, getting healthcare, to the people. So I find that this is the idea in my mind that peace has certain benefits that we all could share and enjoy. 

Heidi: Okay. You talked or wrote in the email that you sent about the Rotarian Approach that you laid out. I'd be interested in hearing you describe those and particularly point out where you see them as different from other traditional peacebuilding approaches, such as the ones that are used by John Paul Lederach or Galtung or folks with the Alliance for Peacebuilding, what I would call mainstream peacebuilders.

Dennis: Well, first of all, I like what Galtung and Lederach are doing. And I incorporate what they're doing, by the way. And I go back to my business background and the idea of identifying what the challenges are to peacebuilding. One of the things that I see brought up a lot in articles and discussions is a lack of trust, being trustworthy. And in fact, there are things that say that without trust, there can be no, sustainable peace, flourishing peace. So what are we doing about building trust? That's the first thing. 

When I said that I'm a Rotarian Peacebuilder, that means that I'm guided by the Rotary mission, vision, values, principles, and practices, those five things.  To create and sustain the Belonging, Hope, and Trust that's needed for a real and flourishing peace.. Then I define that peace as being world peace where every person, every community, and every nation can live in safety, dignity, and well-being, — the consensus value of peace and the benefits of peaceful society.

So that's where I think Rotary, and its idea of mission, vision, values, and principles, and then you have to practice is the Rotarian Approach. From what I've seen, it's a little different way of looking at how do you build trust that's needed to achieve and create,  a sustainable and flourishing peace.

Heidi: Let me push on that one a little bit. As you may know, if you've been looking at our materials very much, we're focusing in for the moment a lot on the United States, partly for the reason that you said earlier. I can't remember if we were recording at this point or not, but we've always had a hard time being a peacebuilder, going out around the world and acting like we knew how to build peace when our own country was as messed up as it was. So we've been focusing in on the United States for quite a while, and more so since things have really gotten bad here. And we're so seriously polarized at this point. Funny that I started to use the word "paralyzed' [instead of polarized] because that's true too. Anyway, we're so polarized that building trust between people and certainly the extremes of the two political parties seems like a very tall order.

Now, organizations like More in Common have pointed out that the center actually still has a lot in common. And if we would start doing more and talking to more people in the center, things might go better. But the political drivers and the media drivers are way out there and driving the fear and the hatred and the polarization. How can you build trust in this kind of environment?

Dennis: Well, you've got to try. That's one thing. You've got to work at it. And you've got to be creative as far as this idea. I go back to the Rotary mission. Can our shared mission and vision help people as far as our purpose? Our mission is to advance understanding, goodwill, and peace. So that's the mission: understanding, goodwill and peace, for people getting together. And also our vision is the fact that together, we see a world where people unite to create lasting change across the globe and in our communities, even in ourselves.

I think the purpose, regardless of where you are,  the extremes or in the middle, everyone wants safety. That's a key thing that I think everybody would agree that they would like to have. Everyone wants personal safety, dignity, well-being, feeling valued, being respected.  And also the idea of well-being. Everyone wants to live a decent life, be healthy, whatever it is. And I think so I think those are the things, as far as in broad terms, I think we all agree on. Now, what we disagree on, and it's debatable, is how we get there. But at least if we have a goal, that goal, as far as living in safety, dignity, and well-being, then we can debate how best to get there and not even best, but how one gets there as far as we can. 

Right now we seem to be stuck in a zero-sum game. And by looking at it and being more creative, and knowing we might find new ideas and new ways where everybody can benefit.  This is, again, where Rotary values come in. The Rotarian Code of Conduct says, "As a Rotarian, I will act with integrity and high ethical standards, deal fairly with others, and treat them with respect." And it also goes on to say, "Help people with special needs and improve people's well-being and quality of life in my community and in the world." So it's really, in a sense, trying to help people live a better life in trying times.

And then we mentioned The Four-Way Test. I tend to use the Four-Way Test, but I flip the order from the more traditional side. So, I start out with, "will it be beneficial to all concern?" And then, "will it build goodwill and better friendships?"  Because one of the things about building goodwill and better friendships is, I know from the business side, that you'd rather do business with people you like than people  you don't like. And so this building of relationships, the idea of belonging, the idea of  trust — is very, very important if we want to get ahead. So while it may be difficult, we have to work on how do we find that trust? How do we get the trust? And some of it is what people are doing You mentioned, a number of organizations, even Braver Angels and the Alliance for Peacebuilding. 

We know some of the approaches, listening and empathy, which are good. You've got to put it together. But then at the same time, move next to the next step on how do we employ some of these tools to gain trust.

So I think we should try to develop a peaceful identity; a trustworthy identity, that what we're trying to do is the best for all concerned.  Also, we should practice what we preach, — leadership by example.

A lot of times, unfortunately, what happens, especially at the leadership level, that doesn't happen. It's that old adage "do as I say, not as I do," which is our problem. That is our problem here in the United States, and around the world, with some of our leaders.  What they say and what they do are completely different. So people don't find them trustworthy. So that's some of the things that we've got to address. 

And I think it starts also, as an individual mindset to ourselves and also our own behavior, our own behavior with other people. But the idea of building trust and being consistent as far as what we do, and also delivering what we say, what we're going to do. 

Heidi: So does Rotary do particular peacebuilding projects in particular locations? Or is it more just a way that Rotarians interact individually in their lives? 

Dennis: There's two things. Rotary as an organization has a focus on peace with programs. One of the things that it put a lot of effort on is education and peace fellows. Every year, about 150 people from around the world are selected to go to about eight peace centers now associated with universities where people can get educated or add to their skills as far as becoming peacebuilders, be it people involved with conflict prevention and the like.  There's one Peace Center at the University of North Carolina and Duke, where a number of people go. And then also we do programs with universities, such as the Carter School. So there's engagement with academic institutions.

Secondly, one of the things we do is what we call "peace through service." So a lot of things that we do in the service area where it helps people lead a better life, which is also part of our definition of peace — about well-being and safety and things like that.

Basically, some of what Rotary's doing and what Rotarians are doing, lead up to a more peaceful world.

What I'm trying to do is not necessarily an either/or, but I'm putting more emphasis on building peace, which will allow us to be more effective in our work in service, if that makes any sense. \But you want both. It's just a matter of where the emphasis might lie and what you're doing. We have a saying within Rotary about "service above self," which is about giving, volunteering, and things like that. And just recently, again, as a Rotarian peace builder, I'm focused now or saying that "peace is the ultimate Rotary service," instead of clean water, instead of other things. How effective my campaign is, and does it make sense to a lot of different people who have been used to, saying, "I do service. I do clean water. I do education, etc.," I don't know.  I'm trying to put a greater emphasis on peace as being able to amplify or leverage whatever else we're doing. I think that's what I see as a possibility  moving forward.  

And, this idea of peacebuilding, it's also an identity. When you say I'm a "Peacebuilder," people look at you and say, "Okay. What do you do?" And I'd like to try to identify myself as a Rotarian Peacebuilder because then I think people know that you stand for something. You have a mission. You have a vision. You have values and principles to back up what you are doing. You have trust in who you are and what you do. And by identifying yourself as somebody who is trustworthy and somebody who others can count on that you're trying to do something that is beneficial to all concerned, I think, may help in moving the needle forward.

And also, again, having a big idea. One of the things that I think we, peacebuilders, could maybe use is — you know the term called BHAG, right? 

Heidi: What's that?

Dennis: Big, Hairy, Audacious Goal. 

Heidi: Oh, yes. Okay. 

Dennis: And why not BHAG for World Peace? Another thing — people think you need a master's degree to be a peacebuilder but, I say, if you can smile, you start peace, just like Mother Teresa said, right?  Peace begins with a smile. So keep smiling and you're a peacebuilder. And then I think that leads to other things. 

Heidi: Let me go back to the conversation that you weighed in on in your email, which was that Chip —and in case people aren't following me here—Chip Hauss is a peacebuilder and a longtime friend of ours who just released a book called Peacebuilding Starts at Home.  And he's trying to get, hopefully, a million people involved in doing peacebuilding, not Rotarian Peacebuilding, but more Alliance for Peacebuilding- type peacebuilding if there is such a thing. And I can see Liz Hume rolling her eyes with that phrase. But he talked in the interview that we did with him about the book, about the Rotary Four-way Test. And he's a relatively new Rotarian, and he's really taken with it. Then another colleague of ours, Sanda Kaufman, said that she thought the four-way test was too difficult to implement, particularly because of the first two planks of it. I think it's interesting that you reverse it, because my take on it, is that the second two— creating friendships and doing things that are of benefit to everybody. Those indeed are the easier two. The ones that are traditionally listed as the first two — is it true? And is it fair? are harder.

And what Sanda said, and we agreed in the post that we put up — was people's definition of "true" and "fair" can be worlds apart. So how do you implement that test without creating conflict? And that was one of the things I wanted to explore with Chip, and we didn't have time. So I'm throwing it out to you. How do you deal with those two things without creating more conflict, as opposed to less? 

Dennis: Well, again, it helps, like you say, start easy. Why start with the hard stuff when you get some agreement on the easy stuff? That's the first thing. What you don't want to do is have people trying to solidify their biases and things. Find out what people you agree on first, right? Okay. So  talk about, common ground.  Well, sometimes it's not easy agreeing on what we all want, but it helps. I think it's an interesting conversation to talk about. What do you wish for the world?  What does Peace feel and look like?

It's a conversation that is more productive. People can gain certain things, and it also opens up their minds to what the possibilities are. So that's the first thing. 

The second thing is what's fair? Yes, it is subjective. But  people know what's not fair. Okay? So we may not necessarily agree on what's fair, but we know what's not fair. And so again, it's getting to at least some agreement as far as, knowing what's not fair. At least then we can address that. 

And then, what is the truth? And it depends. Again, it's how you frame it in your mind. When people look at different situations and have different truths, they go back to advocating their truths as opposed to being open to other people's truths. That's why I flip it, and deal with everything else first. I think the truth becomes more apparent in the context of what we need to do or want to do for a better life for everybody. Also, we need to be flexible. I think that's the problem with, when you ask "is it the truth?" you have people  going back to their own corners and putting up their own barriers as far as justifying why their truths are more true than others. And I think it misses the point, in some ways, from what we want to try and do. For instance, look at what happening in Minneapolis. One of the truth is ICE is legal or ICE is not legal. We want to follow the law, but what is that law? At the same time, in following the law, we respect people and the law. We want to be and we want to avoid violence because being violent is not necessarily, I think, fair to people.

One of the things that attracted me to what you've been talking about is that, when you talk about conflict, you talk about conflict transformation, not just resolution. The way I see it — from Galtung and Lederach is that we're always going to have conflict. It's how we deal with the conflict. And will the conflict lead to more constructive change? Hopefully, the combination of what we stand for as Rotarians, our mission, our vision, our values and principles is a path to conflict transformation where we can look at a situation and imagine a better outcome. 

That's where I think are we different as far as Rotarians, maybe. But again, at least in my estimation, I have some grounding on how to move forward. I have this idea.

This past year, we had a theme called The Magic of Rotary.  And the way the theme came about was that one of our leaders was involved with a water project in the Dominican Republic where they had dirty water. And so they installed a system with a water filter. And so in testing it, at one end, they put in dirty water, it went through the filter, and out came clean water. And there was a boy there who was watching the process. And he saw the dirty water go through the system, and come out clean water. And he said "That's magic! That's magic!" So this is how I think, possibly, Rotary and what we do can be transformative. We can take division and polarization and transform it into some of our principles about belonging, about understanding, transform hate to hope and love.

And then also there is the idea of transforming fear. I go back to the idea of trust and peace. That's what I'm trying to, I guess, in my head. I'm trying to  share my thoughts and with other people. And the Magic of Rotary, is what makes me a Rotarian Peacebuilder. That's the difference.  It's a mindset and the idea of certain principles about having a real purpose about World Peace. And having an identity about being trustworthy and practicing what I preach. And then the idea of a commitment.  As we've shown in Rotary, with our efforts in service and polio and health and education that we have some credentials.

Rotary has a million people. Just think if you had a million Rotarian Peacebuilders around the world. 

Heidi: How many Rotarian Peacebuilders are there at this point? 

Dennis: Not enough. Not enough. And that's why I just identified myself as a Rotarian Peacebuilder this past year. I do so because a fellow at the Carter School did a seminar on identity. It was about the Proud Boys and other similar entities. And people became members of the Proud Boys because it helped them gain an identity that they didn't have. Before joining the Proud Boys, they were just floating around. And so they became something. I realized that identity is very, very important. When you see yourself and other people look at you and see "I'm a graduate of an Ivy League school." People paint a picture. Good, bad, or indifferent, whatever it is. They paint a picture. And you can say "I'm a peacebuilder, there's a picture." It may be kind of a hazy picture. So, I think identity really could be used in a positive way.

I thought, maybe I should call myself a Rotarian Peacebuilder so people like you ask , "What is a Rotarian peacebuilder?" And eventually, that identity can grow. I'm working on it. Our purpose is for world peace where you know everybody can live in safety, dignity and well-being. That's what I'm trying to craft. And let's see where it goes. 

Heidi: It's hard to argue against those goals, except for the fact that it's going to be very challenging to get there. 

Dennis: Well, yes. But again, there are other people doing other things that, if they get there, that's great. But at the same time, I'm working within the Rotary world.  I think people want to join an organization and be part of a winning cause. I think Rotary has a lot to be proud of.  We're a 120-year organization, a big organization. Within any good organization, change is hard. And people don't want to fix what's not broken. But I think Rotary has the potential to do bigger things, more important things in this whole idea of building peace. So, while we're doing credible things, and probably doing as much as any other organization, we could do and should be doing more.

Heidi: Okay. Is there anything that I didn't ask, that you wished I had asked?

Dennis. Some of the activities, what we're doing.  In my Rotary District, we have an action plan called Opus for Peace, where we feel that music is an international language for everybody. So we're using this idea of music and the arts to bring people together to talk about the idea of peace. For example, on  International Peace Day, this past September 21, we had a music concert here in Westport, which had different people, bands and singers and poets who talked about peace and getting together and belonging and things like that.  I think it was a good day as a way of increasing awareness about what we do and how we do it. I think, also, that music can be very, very powerful. That has been shown  throughout the years. And even in protests  — consider Bruce Springsteen with his latest song. So music and the arts is an avenue to build peace. So that's one area that Rotarians in this area are doing. Because of our size and everything else, Rotary has many talented people and also people who are willing to give up their time and money, treasury, to do good things.

And I think this is and that's why my expectations are higher than some, because of our situation, we can and should do more in this area. So we're using some of our creativity to look at different ways of getting there. Different people are working on it, bringing their talent to the idea of peacebuilding. And so it's exciting. And that's one of the areas I think that adds to what's happening as far as what we bring to the party.

Heidi: One of the things that I learned from John Paul was about Mennonite peacebuilding. And Mennonites have gone all over the world and acted as, essentially ,mediators in various world conflicts. Rotarians, have they gone out and acted as mediators on occasion? 

Dennis: Yeah. Actually, once again, the truth is one.  You know Rotarians are volunteers. So it's one of the things that we do. We connect and support organizations that work with organizations within the community. And we've done work with the Mediators Beyond Borders International, MBBI.  And also, I think locally, we work with different programs that are involved with maybe peacebuilding per se.  For example, in my area, we're in consultation with a group that brings Martin Luther King's ideas on mediation and problem-solving and we are working with them where they have the staff to do certain things. So it's really about partnerships in both local areas and also maybe worldwide. And we support them and where we provide the local help to organizations who might have the staff and things to do certain programs. So we do a lot of of things like that. 

Heidi: Okay. Is Rotary open to anybody who wants to join?

Dennis: You want to join? Yes. Certainly. For a long time, it was basically old white guys, business guys. They were Rotarians. And it's interesting. Things do change, and things change because of sometimes internal, sometimes external pressure. Women could become Rotarians since 1986, which is not that long ago.  Rotary was forced by a Supreme Court ruling to let in women. So even though they were nice guys, it took the Supreme Court to say," you know, you've got to open up to women."  And by the way, women are very, very big part of Rotary now and also a big part of the leadership, etc. And thank God, because , they add the whole idea of diversity and everything else.  And the leadership is the one thing with Rotary. We change leadership every year, the president changes. And this year, the president is from Italy. Next year, the president is from Nigeria. The following year, the president's from the United States. And so you have got a lot of different viewpoints and ideas, which is good and bad. It is positive, obviously, getting new ideas.  At the same time, whole idea of continuity and things, different people with different ideas. And that's the trade-off in some ways. But that's where the clubs are. Rotary has 40,000-  50,000 clubs and that is really Rotary's because it's boots on the ground, right? That makes a big difference, boots on the ground, working with local people, trusted people. So it's not just outsiders coming in and trying to solve a problem. It's local people working with local people to achieve a better life for everybody. So again, that's part of the strength.

Heidi:  Well, I thank you very much for reaching out in the first place and for offering your time and your knowledge. It's something that I didn't know much at all about. And I'm assuming that many of our readers and watchers didn't know much about it either. So I wish you luck in growing this. Seems like a very worthwhile endeavor, and I'll be watching how it goes into the future.

Dennis:  Yes. And I welcome if your readers and followers have questions. I'm willing to engage with them \then talk about what they're doing and where you know there might be a fit. One of the things that there's a fit with what you're doing from what I could see is this idea of how we address conflict— that we are trying to transform it in addition to trying to just solve it. Because one of the things that also we want to do prevent certain things from happening, bad things from happening. We want to prevent violent conflicts. That's the one thing. We don't want to prevent all conflicts, because conflict is also what makes us better as far as addressing things. But what we want to do learn how to address conflicts in ways that would be constructive for everybody? 

Heidi: Galtung had the notion of positive peace and negative peace. And everybody's supposed to work for positive peace, which is the much more big peace, more along the lines that you're talking about, about well-being. And negative peace is just the absence of violence. And my reaction is that the concept of positive peace is wonderful and it's worth working for. But if I can just get negative peace, I'll feel that we've done a pretty good job, because just getting rid of violence is going to be a pretty positive step that makes the rest of it possible. But we have a long way to go even in that. 

Dennis: I agree with you. That's why I think achieving safety is so important.  And by the way, I agree. I think a lot of times people are a little too casual as far as saying that peace is more than the absence of violence. Peace is more than the absence of war. I agree with you.  The thing is, do both. You've got to do both. And that's why I go back more and more to the idea of safety.  Safety and fears are things that all sides are concerned about.  And I'm not necessarily an expert in these things, but I know that we should spend more time building trust with each other to address this idea of fear, to address the idea of safety, etc. Rotary's emphasis on its values and principles, on being able to build trust and being trustworthy is so important. 

If I want to leave you with three things that I, in my mind, think are important. They are:

1. Have a clear purpose 
2. Be trustworthy and 
3. Lead by example, which is basically practice what you preach. 

In my mind, those three things are key. And being a Rotarian, helps build those three things. So, please consider joining me as a Rotarian Peacebuilder for world peace.

Heidi:  Well, if everybody followed that, we would certainly be much better off. 

Dennis: Well, one person at a time. That's all we ask is try, right?  And then try and keep smiling. And you know we might get there.

Heidi: We'll get somewhere for sure. Well, Dennis, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed talking to you. And I hope we maintain a relationship at this point. 

Dennis: Well, I hope so, too. And I'm available.